Friday, November 14, 2008

When is a baby a baby?

By noticing my last post it appears that the issue of abortion is still a hot topic even within the community that call themselves Christians. It seems, according to one commenter in the last post, that most of us in America are in the vast minority (compared to the rest of the world) when believing that a child's life begins at conception. According to the commenter, the rest of the world thinks that life begins at birth and not conception.

So, I guesss that woman that others call pregnant is just 9 months fat. Is that a blob of goo in her belly? Why is IT getting bigger by the month? And better than that, why does it move?

I still say and always will say that life begins at conception.

Luke 1

39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.”


T said...

Hooray, an opportunity to finish proving my point from the last blog while staying on topic.

If you have any questions about "personhood" or whether a fetus is human or not take a look at this info: Medical Testimony

And just as a thought for all of you who dont believe that a fetus is a baby: did you know the heart beat begins at 21 days, at 6 weeks the brain registers on a EEG, at 8 weeks all organs are present, a baby can survive outside the womb at 21 weeks...that is only half way to term.

Now what defines birth, when a child can survive or when a child is suppose to be born; this is a slippery slope of definitions and late term abortion isnt it?

So if a baby is premature does that mean it is not really a person yet because it did not come to full term? Does that mean a woman who has a premature baby and throws it in the dumpster to die should not be prosecuted because it was not a baby yet?

If a woman is not to full term then an abortion is still legal because its a choice not a baby according to some. Do you see where this road of defining personhood according to conception versus birth leads?

Michael said...

I'd like to raise the Exodus reference once again if I may...

(Exodus 21:22-25 (ESV)) “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

The Hebrew word for "harm" [אָסוֹן], according to the Biblical Dictionary of Languages with Semantic Domains: Hebrew, lists the following primary definition..."bodily injury, i.e., a serious accidental physical injury"

Unlike a previous poster on a separate thread, I believe God does directly speak to the consequences of inflicting damage upon the unborn.

In the case in which the child is spontaneously delivered from the unintended harm, there is to be a fine if the husband so demands, the amount of which is to be determined by a judge.

In the case in which the child is harmed in any way (including being killed) from the unintended harm, the penalty is exacted in kind (eye of eye, life for life). Note that in this case it is NOT up to the husband to decide.

If God would have the guilty party put to death for the unintentional murder of the fetus, what judgment can we rightly infer if the act was intentional..?

This seems clear to me, perhaps I'm missing something...

Christopher said...

Mike, it's more than clear. The scriptures speak for themselves. It's the single issue, single verse mentality that is the problem.

I was on a secular website today with a similar topic. The common thought was that a baby was not a person until they could retain thoughts and have a memory. They were so pro-death that they wanted to be able to kill their babies up until 6 months old. They said that no one has memories until they are around two years old. I know I can't remember anything before being about 3 or 4. So the goal is to define personhood my their mental abilities. By this, you could give birth to a downs syndrome baby, and decide it wasn't what you wanted, and have it terminated by suffocation, or by no feeding.

When Terri Schiavo's husband was granted by a judge to kill his brain damaged wife, the pro-deathers came out in force. The one thing I will never forget about that case was that they had experts that came forward to say 'starvation was a euphoric way to die'. They made it sound like everyone would want to do this.

This will be the new abortion debate. If we allow partial birth, and the libs don't have that to complain about anymore, the next step will be wanting to kill their 1 year olds.

Michael said...

I know is all too sad. Based upon the ability to form memories, does that mean we will next start mercy killing at the other end of life, for those afflicted with Alheizimers disease, or advanced senility?

Who gets to decide where the line of brain function / memory is drawn?

The generation of children that have been taught that killing based upon perceived quality of life going forward is acceptable...?

Anonymous said...

I like Barack Obama's response at Rick Warren's forum when he was asked where life begins, his answer was "it is above my pay grade to answer that question". And although I make a 6 figure income, I say with Barack Obama, that it is above my pay grade as well. God gives life and takes it away. A baby becomes a baby when he comes out of the womb, a fetus is not a baby. That being said there's a difference between an 9-month fetus and an egg that was just fertilized by the sperm the day before. Anybody that argues that a woman taking the "morning after" pill is killing a baby, is certainly wrong. All the woman is doing is preventing the formation and birth of a baby, she's killing the fertilized egg. is it sinful? It probably is, that being said, it is hard to justify the banning of the morning after pill. There are many other moral questions that need to be answered. What if the woman doesn't want the baby? What if the woman is not financially secure to have the baby? What if the woman is not ready to raise a baby, e.g. a 14 year old teenage drug addict woman? What if the baby is doomed to die, e.g. a woman in Ethiopia deciding to have an abortion due to the famine in the country? What if the abortion is performed for population control like in China or it could be in any other country?

For me all this is philosophy, and as a christian I'd rather not engage in vain philosophy to determine when is a baby a baby.


jazzact13 said...

I like Barack Obama's response at Rick Warren's forum when he was asked where life begins, his answer was "it is above my pay grade to answer that question".

You like that response???

Well, in a way, I do to. It was one of those moments of extreme clarity, one of the few the messiah and his media disciples gave us, like his comments to Joe the Plumber. We got to see just how disingenuous and weaselly this man is.

"...above my pay grade...". Yeah, like that's kept him from being as pro-abortion as anyone has ever been. Like that kept him from even opposing born-alive legislation, and then lying about the reasons he didn't support it.

emergent pillage said...

A baby becomes a baby when he comes out of the womb, a fetus is not a baby.

For someone who wants to say it's "above your pay grade", you say that with something like certainty.

Upon what basis do you say "a baby becomes a baby when he comes out of the womb"? Is a premie a baby, while a fetus of the same development stage not a baby? Is the only difference between a baby and a fetus one of location?

All I see in a rather weak attempt at rationalization.


Citizen Atheist said...

If life begins at conception, then God is the biggest proponent of abortion of all time.

Most fertilized eggs do not result in pregnancy. They do not attach to the uterine wall and therefore die. If God is in charge of all things, and God allowed the "baby", which consists of only a dozen cells or so, to die, then God aborted the pregnancy and murdered the baby.

C'mon people - THINK!

Furthermore, if each egg is a potential baby, and each sperm is a potential baby, then we are being wicked every time a man walks past a woman and doesn't take the opportunity to help her NOT waste her egg, which is a potential human life.


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