Thursday, November 01, 2007

THE EARLY CHURCH WOULD HAVE THROWN THEM OUT!


Why is it that we do our best to just get along with everyone? Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that we need to create enemies at every turn. I am not saying that we should try to find the wrong in others in hopes that we can create divisions. What I am saying is that we, as believers, need to really be careful who we support and and give our attention to.

We have to decide what our boundaries are within doctrine when it comes to who we keep company with and who we part company with. I bring "to the table" Oneness Pentecostalism and two of its adherents; T.D. Jakes and the popular contemporary "Christian" group Phillips, Craig and Dean.

Oneness Pentecostalism espouses the antitrinitarian viewpoint which rejects the Trinity (the doctrine that God is three distinct persons in one being.) I bring this up because both Mr. Jakes and PCD (Phillips, Craig and Dean) are all pastors and supporters of this belief. Here are a few more of their beliefs...

1. Denies justification by faith alone by stating that baptism is also required for salvation.
2. Jesus is God the Father.
3. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
4. The name of God is "Jesus."
5. Baptism is necessary for salvation.
6. Denies pre-existence of the Word as the Son. Teaches that the He existed as the Father.
7. Being born again means repentance, baptism, and speaking in tongues.
8. Baptism must be administered by an ordained Oneness minister to be valid.
9. Baptism must be administered with the phrase, "In the name of Jesus" instead of the phrase, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).
10. Speaking in tongues is a necessary requirement to demonstrate that a person has been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and is, therefore, saved. It is claimed to be the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
11. Women may be pastors.
12. Only Oneness people will go to heaven.

Antitrinitarianism is nothing more than Modalism. Modalism made popular in the third century by Sabellius taught that the monotheistic God progressively revealed Himself through the offices of the Trinity. Interestingly, Sabellius was excommunicated from the Church for his false teachings.

The Oneness Pentecostal teaching that God "manifested" Himself through the offices of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit comes directly from Sabellius, who even used the term "manifesting" to define his doctrine.

"But, have you heard how good PCD sings?" "Have you seen how many people go to the Potter's House where Bishop Jakes pastors?"

My response is WHO CARES? They deny a foundational doctrine of the church and we are supposed to just "not worry about it" and just get along??

I think we should come against this cultic teaching and separate ourselves from it and from them.

THE EARLY CHURCH WOULD HAVE THROWN THEM OUT.

50 comments:

Brent said...

Yes the early "Called Out Ones" would have and the true "Called Out Ones" still do!

John 10:2-6
(KJV)

2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Mike Ratliff said...

Amen! I agree, throw them out! Oneness Pentecostalism is just another cult. A "Chrisitan Cult" would be defined as a group holding doctrines that deny one or more persons in the trinity. Also, they ALWAYS put forth requirements for salvation that include works of some kind. They are also exclusive, only their group is saved.

Isn't it amazing how easy it is for religious people to appear as "Christian" in their religion, but they do not have the Holy Spirit, they are not regenerate. This is why we must look at their fruit not their appearace. (as the Word tells us)

In Christ

Mike Ratliff

Dead Theologians said...

Mike,

You are dead-on my friend. I am amazed at how many "christians" are not questioned or even looked at with a curious eye even though their doctrine reeks.

DT

Anonymous said...

I am just shocked at how many people LOVE PCD!!! Radio stations go crazy playing their songs, too. For that matter, I wonder how many other "Christian" singers are on the local Christian stations and do not hold to the true Word of God?

Good post.

9:30 AM

Ken Silva said...

Nice work DT.

If you hadn't seen it I did a piece about Jakes' view of God here:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/
2007/01/keeping_you_app_8.html

And as to this question: "I wonder how many other "Christian" singers are on the local Christian stations and do not hold to the true Word of God?"

It wouldn't be a stretch to say many. The "Chri$tian" mu$ic indu$try is virtually identical to it$ $ecular counterpart.

A$ it wa$ $aid in the movie: "$how me the money!"

approvedworkman said...

C'mon Ken
Now iggy is going to show up and ruin our day. you just had to do the $$$. LOL!

Seriously though, how do the Sabellians deal with this passage:

Matthew 3:
16And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Jesus was an illusionist/ventriloquist?

Coram Deo said...

I recently went about 8 rounds with a massively deceived adherent of Jakes' non-gospel.

Sadly I was unable to say anything to convince this blind follower of the blind to consider Jakes' myriad wildly unbiblical claims in the light of scripture.

Of course I suppose it didn't help anything that this particular hireling was employed by Jakes (can you say "meal ticket"?) and was a self-proclaimed pastor/minister within two of his churches...oh and did I mention this "pastor/minister" was a woman?

It seems that even the impossible is possible with the Midas touch of Trinity denying word-faith guru T.D. Jakes.

Ken Silva said...

Approved,

$orry 'bout that money thang. I should have known better. Iggy is likely to come here...um, he seems just a bit obse$$ed with me.

Coram,

Nice job my brother. Let us keep encouraging one another because even though it may not look as if the Lord isn't having effect through us, He certainly can.

Dr. Walter Martin used to tell of getting into a spiritual firefight with Bill Cetnar, then working in the Brooklyn headquarters of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Martin said nothing penetrated and he left feeling it was a waste of time. Then at one of Martin's speaking engagement years later Cetnar suprised him by announcing during a question and answer session that he had become born again.

Keep on wielding the Sword my brother! Soli Deo Gloria!

Timothy said...

Um, the early Church would have thrown out Luther and Calvin. Oh wait, they did!

Its always interesting to read followers of one heresy pointing fingers at followers of another heresy. But, I do agree with you that OP is a heresy.

God bless...

approvedworkman said...

Oh Timothy!!

I have run into this guy before.
The rcc was the babylonian captivity of the Church, to wit the call has been going out in force in these last days,"come out of her my people".

Check out his blog. He claims to be bible believing. :-)

dsstanfield said...

T. D. Jakes is a heretic, and he uses the false gospel that he espouses to line his trouser pockets.

Deuteronomy 18:20

"But the Prophet that shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that speaketh in the name of other gods, even the same Prophet shall die."

dsstanfield said...

Timothy,

Charles Colson, J. I. Packer, or Billy Graham would probably receive your comments a little better than the Protestants on this blog.

Unless you can use the Holy Scriptures to prove Mary-worship, indulgences, transubstantiation, works-salvation, purgatory, or penance (among other things).... your observations concerning heretics probably fall on deaf ears.

D. Stanfield

Dead Theologians said...

Timothy,

I noticed this on your profile "attending a Bible-believing and Bible practicing Catholic church"?
Is there such a thing?

Calvin and Luther were not kicked out the church. They were kicked out of the false church.

DT

Coram Deo said...

Speaking of T.D. Jakes, can anyone account for why he dresses to look like a box of Skittles?

Yellow dress shirts, purple silk suits, grape soda shoes, and a red tie all at once? The "Bishop" typically looks like he's fresh from a pimp convention!

Maybe there really is something to the accusations of pimpery from the pulpits after all?

Anonymous said...

First, your list of beliefs contains erroneous information. It does not match what is stated on the UPCI website, the PAW website or any other oneness site I have seen... (Anecdotal evidence is irrelevant here... just the facts please)

Second, your so called foundational doctrine was constructed in the 4th century by what many protestants now consider to be the "harlot" church. Strange that of all her doctrines you choose that one to latch on to.

Third, please quote the chapter and verse in which it is stated that one's undersanding of the nature of God is a requirement for salvation...

Fourth, Jesus commanded that we baptize (Matt 28:19 and be baptized Mark 16:15-16) Please quote the chapter and verse that states we may disobey directives from our Lord or where those directives were repealed...

Fifth, please find a specific Biblical historical instance (chapter and verse) where someone only confessed, believed and nothing more. Romans is the entry point; the beginning, not the destination. Salvation comes through faith in Jesus. However, if you choose to live in disobedience to the commands of Christ (such as baptism, love thy neighbor, forgive, etc.) then you sin and do not know Him (1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:2-3) Some will hear “ I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

You should be more careful. Your hatred of other believers will only harm you and lead others down a dangerous path...

Anonymous said...

Addendum to previous post...

Hatred was a poor choice of words on my part...My apologies... (The rest of the post stands) It is most disconcerting that you affirm that we should "throw them out" Should we throw out Catholics for what they believe regarding the Lord's supper? Should we throw out the Assemblies of God because they believe that when one has received the baptism of the Holy Ghost they will speak in tongues? Maybe we should throw out all Baptists who believe in "once saved always saved" (Not that they all do...)

Did I leave anyone out? Is there any one left to throw out? Denominations and sects have differing views. (Such is the nature of individuality and social dynamics) The point is you are using the word cult a little too liberally. If you believe that the only requirement for salvation is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Which, if I am not mistaken all the aforementioned groups meet) then what is your real complaint? Why do you speak with such hostility toward other believers?

dsstanfield said...

To be a Christian is to love what God loves and to hate what God hates. God HATES false teachers. Throughout the Bible, God constantly warns His church to be on guard against them and to punish them accordingly. The sentence was death, just as it was for any who practiced divination.

Matt. 7:15; Matt. 24:11,24; Mark 13:22; 2 Pet. 2:1; I John 4:1; Deut. 18:20

The church has adopted such an unbiblical view of "loving our neighbor." Today, many believe that to "love" someone is to never correct or disagree with them. To "love" someone is simply to accept them as they are and never to challenge their ideas or beliefs. That's hogwash! And in some cases, it could be "loving" our neighbors straight to hell.

It is time for the church to stand up and start calling a spade a spade, standing on the Bible as their final authority. The mealy-mouthed, crowd pleasing entertainers that fill many pulpits today need to be replaced with real men who will preach the entire counsel of God unwaveringly and unashamedly. Then we would see true revival. God's Word is always effectual when preached. Sadly, most evangelical churches have played the harlot with the world, and have traded God's Glory for temporal things.

dss

andy said...

Hi all!! Don't know much about the oneness beliefs of either mention,but i do know i would be suspicious of going to any contemporary church who's minister calls himself bishop,i just find it a little iffy..

Is there a scriptural reason to call yourself a bishop?
andy

Dead Theologians said...

anonymous,

Hail, gladdening Light, of his pure glory poured, who is immortal Father, heavenly blest; Holiest of Holies, Jesus Christ our Lord!

Now are we come to the sun’s hour of rest; the lights of evening round us shine, we hymn the Father, Son and Holy Spirit divine.

Worthiest art thou at all times to be sung,with undefilèd tongue,
Son of our God, Giver of life, alone! Therefore in all the world thy glories, Lord, they own.

150 A.D

You said...
"Should we throw out Catholics for what they believe regarding the Lord's supper?"

I say throw out the Catholics with all their Hellish doctrines (Mary, purgatory, anti-sola scriptura, communion etc.)

DT

David said...

When you address God you are not addressing three different people. The apostles did not teach about the trinity because it doesn’t exist. Trinity, coequal, coeternal, three persons, etc. are not in any Bible translation or manuscript in existence. They are the constructs of Roman theology, as well as Babylonian, Egyptian and other philosophies. The concept of God being three separate, distinct people creates division where none exists. I know people like to say that it comes from or is based on scripture. But I would rather have the truth than something based on the truth.

Most of us would agree that God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But the separation of persons comes as man’s feeble attempt to place the infinite God into a finite context which they can understand. Using philosophies to explain God and His Word is the first step on a dangerously slippery slope. “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (Colossians 2:8-9)

Some denominations refer to God as being three distinct persons or three coequal coeternal, persons etc. While Jesus Christ was God in Heaven, He was God manifested in the flesh at the same time. That speaks to His omnipotence and omnipresence. His being human in no way divides Him into distinct persons nor takes away from His deity. If God chose to speak to each of us face to face simultaneously, it would not make Him multiple persons.

I don't think most trinitarians realize that "three persons", three people, three personalities, three personages and "three beings" are very similar if not congruent statements. The qualifier "one in essence" does not negate this. The larger problem is that some triniarians say they believe in one God but speak as if He were three separate beings united by a common word (Godhead). Hence the constant confusion of whom to address when they pray Some would find it inappropriate to pray to the Son directly but have no problem doing so when it comes to the "sinners prayer"

Trinitarians also claim that God is coequal yet cling to a very rigid heirarchy in terms of the Godhead. I've never heard anyone say anything but "Father Son and Holy Ghost"

Trinitarians also seem to think that the Godhead is a container. It is not. It is a word that means deity.

If you want to believe that God is three people that is your choice. Don't force your confusion on other people.

Anonymous said...

DT,

At least I know exactly where you stand. For the recordI do not agree with Catholic-made doctrines either.

What about the other groups? You made bo mention of the Assemblies of God or Baptists. I am unclear here. Should we throw them out because they do not believe what other Christian sects believe? The Baptist church has Calvinistic roots. Many "Evangelicals", Pentecostals, and other Protestants seem to find Calvinism somewhat disturbing.

Southern Baptists do not believe in speaking in tongues. Since they out number the Assemblies Nationally, should they "trhow out" the Assemblied?

The Church of Christ does not believe in tongues nor certain types of music in the sanctuary. (I think you see where I am going with this)

Some of these denominations have views that are significanlty "off the mark". Yet they thmeselves will use the same sort of verbage you use here. (Speaking in tongues seems to be a particular point of contention for non-Pentecostals)

You said, "I say throw out the Catholics with all their Hellish doctrines (Mary, purgatory, anti-sola scriptura, communion etc.)"

Why do you adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity to so vehemently? Afterall, it is a Catholic doctrine... It arose amid the Roman "church fathers" and was codified during the 4th century.(There is one church father, His
Name is Jesus)

If you feel so strongly about Catholicism, why choose to be joined one erroneous doctrine among many?

I also would be curious to hear your responses to the other 5 things I mentioned...

Dead Theologians said...

anonymous,

Being a pastor I had to go and preach and teach so I could not answer all of your questions. I will attempt to do so now.

You said...
"You made bo mention of the Assemblies of God or Baptists. I am unclear here. Should we throw them out because they do not believe what other Christian sects believe? The Baptist church has Calvinistic roots. Many "Evangelicals", Pentecostals, and other Protestants seem to find Calvinism somewhat disturbing."

What about Baptists? They differ on many things. Grace by faith in Christ is not usually something that is debated in Baptist circles.
Assemblies of God, Church of God, Pentecostals, Holiness and the such are very mislead when it comes to the finished work of Christ on the cross. To believe that you can "lose your salvation" after being genuinely convertly is heresey in the 1st order in my book. That is saying that Christ's blood does not cover all sin. In many circles people would call that cultic.

You said...
"Southern Baptists do not believe in speaking in tongues. Since they out number the Assemblies Nationally, should they "trhow out" the Assemblied?"

This is a non-essential to salvation. As one group puts it:
In essentials-Unity
In non-essentials-Liberty
In all things-Charity

You said...
"The Church of Christ does not believe in tongues nor certain types of music in the sanctuary. (I think you see where I am going with this)"

The Church of Christ believes in Baptismal regeneration which is cultic.

You said...
"If you feel so strongly about Catholicism, why choose to be joined one erroneous doctrine among many?"

HUH?

You said...
"I also would be curious to hear your responses to the other 5 things I mentioned"

What other 5 things?

DT

Dead Theologians said...

David,

You said...
"If you want to believe that God is three people that is your choice. Don't force your confusion on other people."

Thanks for your opinion. You are the one confused, not me. You came by, no one made you.

DT

dsstanfield said...

David said:

"Trinity, coequal, coeternal, three persons, etc. are not in any Bible translation or manuscript in existence. "

In the unity of the Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

I John 5:7: "For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE."

The Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding: the Son is eternally begotten of the Father.

John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. verse 18: "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The Holy Spirit eternally proceeded from the Father and Son.

John 15:26: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.

Gal. 4:6: "And because you are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father."

Anonymous said...

Dead Theologians,

Being a Pastor myself I understand your needing to fulfill the obligations of your calling.

I think you missed my point. It is not something I intend to argue with you; however, I did want to bring it to your attention.

You have chosen to label other groups as cultic and or heretical according to your own opinions and based upon your understanding of scripture. One can argue with "this is what the scripture says" until they go hoarse. But you and I both know that the reason these different sects exist is disagreement over scripture (and secondarily politics).

The point being, despite our obvious disagreement, I have not and will not call you a cultist nor a heretic. In this I would encourage you to follow a more excellent way.

I know that ultimately you and I both love and revere God. I know that you and I both believe that Jesus Christ made a perfect and atoning sacrifice at Calvary and that He rose from the dead on the third day. I know that we both have trusted Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

We disagree on many other things but on these we agree. Do we not? What place do I have therefore, to condemn you as a heretic or a cultist for your understanding. We can call one another mislead. (I can live with that) but you sir, go too far.

I spoke to you about Baptists and I know what they belive as I used to be one.

Now as a "Oneness Pentecostal" I can tell you with all surety that you severely misrepresented the beliefs of Oneness Pentecostals. A few examples are: You wrongly assumed that we do not believe in Grace by faith in Christ. You wrongly stated that "Only Oneness people will go to heaven." You wrongly stated that "Baptism must be administered by an ordained Oneness minister to be valid." You wrongly stated that, "Women may be pastors." Your information is indeed in error. The statement of beleifs that Oneness Pentecostals uniformly refer to as the Apostle's Docrtine contains none of the aforementioned statements.

Some of the things you have mentioned are denominational choices and directives, not a uniform doctrine of Oneness Pentecostals...

With regard to that particular Catholic doctrine to which you are so inextricably connected, that is the doctrine of the trinity, why hold on to a belief held by this group when you said "I say throw out the Catholics with all their Hellish doctrines (Mary, purgatory, anti-sola scriptura, communion etc.)" Historically speaking, this belief was constructed and codified by the Roman church in the 4th centrury.

Again I would say to you, "If you believe that the only requirement for salvation is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Which, if I am not mistaken all the aforementioned groups meet) then what is your real complaint?"

The last question is rhetorical as I do not intend to aruge nor debate these issues any further. As I said I wanted to bring this to your attention.

May God bless you...

dsstanfield said...

"Again I would say to you, "If you believe that the only requirement for salvation is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Which, if I am not mistaken all the aforementioned groups meet) then what is your real complaint?"

I guess a better question might be, what do you believe about the Lord Jesus? Do you assent to what God said in the Scriptures about His Son? Many people have constructed an image of Jesus in their mind based upon their own vain imaginations, which amounts to nothing more than idolatry.

Rita Martinez said...

Oh Mr. Dead Theologian..I have been grieved so lately...I wonder why we as the Church of Christ do not have more power over such things as cults that are misleading people to hell...Last wednesday my sister went to pick me up from church and she was telling me that she was going to go to this play the youth group form my church was doing last night, a play on the Five Solas of the Reformation, and then I told her just in case that i wasn't going to act in that play and so she changed her mind and said oh well then nevermind...When I asked her why she wasn't going, she said I don't believe in your five solas (mind you she's catholic) I was in shock! because she was christian, you know one of those rare exceptions cause her group are "charismatic" catholics, and so when we walked into the house I said you know uh they're not MY solas they're in the bible like in Romans; but she was specifially referring to Sola Fide, because you know catholics believe we're saved through works and God's grace, I was like! noooo Works are just the results of your faith...and then she started bringing up the verse "Show me your faith without works" and then she just asked me not to fight over faith issued and ran upstairs...I just couldn't belive it! seriously what do they do with Roamns 3:28 I'd like to know and all these other passages on Justification by Faith...
But it doesn't end there!! I have a friend who is also a catholic, and also believes she's saved but not sure she's going to heaven, and last friday we were sitting outside at the university waiting to be picked up by our parents, and I'm talking to this other friend of mine who is a recent convert and I'm reading her some bible verses and then my friend the Catholic starts to explain something about heaven and says that when she goes up to heaven she'll see what she's won...I was woahhhhh wait a second!...we don't earn heaven or salvation, its all by God's grace cause yeah nothing we could ever do would be enough to gain either salvation...and then she as well said the whole we are saved by works etc etc and then when I explained to her (she's more open than my sister) what the bible says and gave her the gospel, she had such a serious look on her face and then said she had to look for her bible to check things out...please pray for my friend and my sister!!
God Bless!!

papa_pauly said...

Funny, a certain group asked the Apostle Peter "what must we do to be saved? "Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."(Acts 2:38)
Oh and Paul the Apostle also said " saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.(Acts 19:4)
Guess what happened afterwards? "they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."(Acts 19:5)Paul baptized them in Jesus Name. Oh wait.... so did Peter. Looks like Peter and Paul were Oneness Pentecostals or what you would call "cultic teachers" as you like to say.

Looks like the early church would have thrown you out buddy!!

approvedworkman said...

papa pauly,
Let's look at some scripture:

Matthew 3:
16And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

I had already used this passage in a previous comment. Was Jesus a ventriliquist/illusionist? Heck of a Vegas act...eh?

Matthew 28:
18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

The use of the word "authority" in verse 18 is extremely important.
Is Jesus contradicting Peter here? Did Peter, who was present when Jesus spoke these words forget what was commanded?

The word used here for authority is "exousia" which is also translated as power, jursidiction,control etc,
We baptize, as Jesus commanded, as He is given all the authority which Paul tells us in Eph 1:19-23.
Now on to;

Acts 2:
37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The word used as "name" is "onoma" which should be literally translated as "the authority of the name" of Jesus.
Put that together with Matthew 28 and I believe that you are wrong. The apostles were not oneness pentecostals. We baptize in the name of the father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the authority of the name of Jesus.

rita martinez,
I will be putting up a post on Sola Fide over at my anti-papist blogsite;
nonpaxromana.blogpsot.com
I should have it up by tomorrow.
Your comment is spot on.

dsstanfield said...

Hey...I have a question. Who is the "us" in Genesis 1:26? Who is the "our?"

"Furthermore God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness, and let them rule over..."

dk said...

No one knows the answer??

I don't know the answer. It could be Father and the Son, or Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, or Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and the angels??

Eagerly waiting for answers..

dk

Anonymous said...

You will be judged as you have judged. Sincerely, Jesus

dsstanfield said...

Anonymous,

I think the Scriptures say that you will be judged by the same standard with which you judge others. (Matthew 7)... It NEVER says not to judge. We are to be discerning concerning all error that is taught and preached.

Now, if you are using your own vain imagination and opinions with which to judge others (legalism), you are in trouble. However, if you are using the Holy Scriptures as your standard, then your judgments not only are allowed, but are commanded by God.

Anyone who uses the "judge not" verse as reason never to disagree with someone else has totally misunderstood and misapplied the Bible. Oftentimes it is used to make one's self look more "spiritual" than those old meanies who expect people who call themselves "Christians" to actually conform to God's Holy, infallible Word and to live up to their profession.

I would most definitely warn you, Anonymous, about using a verse out of context and then attaching Jesus' name to it. That is blasphemous.

dss

Dead Theologians said...

Rita,

I am very proud of you for standing for the truth. I can be lonely, especially when it involves friends and family.

Grace by faith in Christ ALONE will definitely anger people because they have no part in it.

I will pray for your sister and friend.
Thanks for your post.
DT

Dead Theologians said...

Anonymous,

Thanks for your anonymous comment.
Comments from non-people really mean a lot.

DT

Dead Theologians said...

dk,

You said...
"Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and the angels?? "

You still amaze me with your comments.

DT

JSU said...

Wow! Jesus visited Dead Theologians and even misinterpreted the very passage he attempted to quote!

Anonymous Jesus, don't point your finger at someone when you are telling them not to point their fingers at someone else. You really need to understand that passage before you go pointing it around.

dk said...

When God created man in His image, in what way do we resemble God? Is that resemblance just with God or also with the angels? For example, do we resemble God in our attributes (ability to love, express emotions etc), or the ability to think, or it the appearance? This made me think whether the conversation was also with the angels. In my opinion, angels being spiritual beings have more resemblence to God's image than human. May be some of you can quote some scripture to help me understand (with our limited ability to understand these things).

dk

dsstanfield said...

Anonymous "Jesus" reminds me somewhat of those horrible billboards that ignorant Christians put up. You know the ones that say things like:

"Meet me after the game." ...God

"Where have you been?" .... God

"Don't make me come down there." ... God

d.

approvedworkman said...

dk
This is the kind of study I love to get into to.

Genesis 1:
26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


Man was created in the image of God when he was created male and female and given dominion.
The male/female aspect is worthy of a whole study on its own, but the dominion aspect is obvious.
Man looks like God when he has "dominion"
When Adam and Eve,(male and female) fell.
"Fallen man" no longer bore, nor bears the image and likeness of God.
Having to toil and produce thorns and thistles from the now "cursed" earth does not reflect the original dominion God gave man. (Genesis 3:17-19)

This was the first Adam; dead in his sins, that all unregenerate mankind walks in.

Romans 5:
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—


Now comes Christ Jesus:
Colossians 1:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Romans 1:
4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

So now the first Adam, once called the son of God (Luke 3:23-38) is dead in his sins, and his flesh is crucified in the "last Adam" i.e. Jesus who took on the form of flesh, i.e. mankind.
All who walk in the first Adam, that is the unregenerate, bear no resemblance to the Father.
Only those in Jesus, the true Son, bear the image and likeness of God. (John 14:8-11)
Jesus came in the form of sinful flesh to judge it in death. The first Adam is truly dead.

Romans 6:
5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Galatians 5:
24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 6:
But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

1 Cor 15:20-40 along with the above Scriptures, show us that only those in Christ, the Son, now walk as new creations, in new life. They bear the stamp of the resurrection of Jesus, which proves Jesus is the Son of God. The first Adam is no longer a son, as the dead are dead. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
(Matthew 22:29-33)

Now we do not "blow off" unregenerate men, as some have accused me of saying. We preach the once crucified, but now risen Jesus. The crucifixion and resurrection cannot exist apart from each other. This is why I have a problem with the crucifix of the RCC. It is not merely a graven image. It is an image of the first Adam dead in his sins.
It is not an object of worship.


Now on to the angels

Hebrews 2:
9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

And:

Hebrews 2:
14Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that angels were created in God's image and likeness. It is obvious also in Hebrews 2 that Jesus died for the sake of mankind. Jesus vcame in the flesh as man not as an angel. he is separate from the angels, as men are.

Angels long to understand salvation as they are not recepients of it.

1 Peter 1:
12 It was revealed to them (the prophets) that they were serving not themselves but you (the present day church), in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

And God has judged the rebellious angels and cast them into fire without hope (2 Peter 2:4)

So angels and men are two different beings entirely. Fallen angels not originally created in God's image and likeness, can never be redeemed. Fallen man however, can be redeemed, that is recreated by faith in Jesus Christ, as fallen man was originally created in God's image and likeness.
Because of Jesus, dead men can rise.

John 3:
3Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Rev 21:
5And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."

Hope that this helps.

approvedworkman said...

Rita
I really like your blog. You have a solid foundation for having only been a believer for such a short time. Stay strong!

My post is up re: Sola Fide
http://nonpaxromana.blogspot.com/

BTW my wife spent two years in the D.R. as a peace corps volunteer in the early 80's. She was placed in Enriquillo I believe.

EgoMakarios said...

"1. Denies justification by faith alone by stating that baptism is also required for salvation."

"5. Baptism is necessary for salvation."

Throw Peter out while you're at it! The fact is that pistis (i.e. faith) means more than mental assent. It means trust, loyalty, faithfulness. Faith is contrary to the works of the Law (i.e. the ceremonies of the OT) but not to the commands of Christ. Faith in Christ demands that we be baptized. Anyone who says they have faith in Christ and doesn't get baptized is a liar.

How telling that you consider the truth of Acts 2:38-39 such a bad heresy that you list it twice. Yet Peter says "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, because the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him." Peter would list the denial of the necessity of baptism on his list of heresies twice.

dsstanfield said...

ego:

While believers and their children (sorry DT, I have to say it) are to be baptized out of obedience to Christ, baptism is not a requirement for salvation. If it were, the thief on the cross would have been in serious trouble, yet he had Jesus' assurance that he would enter heaven.

For a believer to neglect one of God's ordinances is a grievous sin (Luke 7:30, Exodus 4:24). However, grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed to baptism as that no person can be saved without it (Romans 4:11). Nor are all who receive baptism necessarily saved (Acts 8:13).

dss

dk said...

Approved,

Thank you for answering my question with respects to man being created in the image of God. It was really helpful.

dk

St. Brianstine said...

Niiiiiiiiiiiiice Post

lynne said...

AMEN, can't say it any louder than that! Keep contending for the faith once delivered unto the saints.

Dead Theologians said...

St. Brianstine and Lynne,

Thanks for your comments. It is a troubling reality but we have strayed so far from the early church.

DT

Anonymous said...

Its obvious you people know nothing about the History of the church and what his apostles really were. His apostles never believed a distinction between JESUS as the one GOD except through the flesh and that was it.
The doctrine of the trinity is the most unfounded ridiculous claim that the church has ever made about GOD.

While the whitewashed watered down version that a lot of you so-called christians claim you follow do their best to hold onto their idiology of belief that was indoctrinated by ambitious power grubbing people of the catholic church. I bet every last one of you only accept it because of what your parents or their parents or some false-teacher has taught you opposite of the truth.

As a former trinitarian myself I know all the so-called excuses you guys have putting together articles like this to try an justify your reasonings.

Let me clarify somethings, first off. TD Jakes is not a oneness person he stepped away from that the day he began excepting two doctrines into his church. The only people that call the oneness doctrine heretical are the heretics themselves, because they misunderstand what is being clearly stated.

Your foolish doctrine says the Triunity, but did you know the word unity means something joined that was divided? Hmmm GOD is not divided nor ever was divided or ever will be. So how can a GOD that was not divided be a triunity?

I usually don't mind people stating something because of their ignorance, but you all on here keep the claim to Matthew 28:19 without reading all of the other ones of Mark, and Luke where it never says that again. Why is that? Yet in the book of Acts where the church started it is back more than 6 times on the formula used to baptize beleivers.

The infilling of the HOLY GHOST has not changed, but you trinitarian defenders have made it to be a spirit of dryness that shows no evidence of its existence upon the believer when they recieve the HOLY GHOST or so-called you say Holy Spirit.

You think just because somebody can teach well or sing well or speak well means they got the spirit of the one GOD in them who is JESUS the CHRIST. No they don't, because not even the apostles accepted anybody who did not have the evidence of the HOLY GHOST in them through the new testament if they spoke not with other tongues.

Foolishness has brought your judgement of oneness down because you understand it not. TD Jakes does not believe what we apostolics believe, but he believes in Mammon (money). Before you make slanderous accusations against something you know nothing of I suggest you talk to more than just a few and study more scripture.

Who would be tossed by the Early Apostles some men who beleived GOD was divided when they clearly understood the person according to Colossians 2:9 had the very indwelling of the godhead in him therefore making himself GOD. Or some polytheistics who think GOD is eternally existent in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? If that's the case at the end when I meet my LORD I'd better see GOD with JESUS on his side and a parched birds nest for a dove on his left. Then I'll believe that.

Anonymous said...

Oh Yeah and by the by my name is Steven on the comment above defending oneness.

Reply if you wish, but know this I put up anonymous because I have no account with this.

Dead Theologians said...

Steven,

As a matter of fact I am a pastor and a church history professor.

Your mind is made up and there is no reason to hash it out with you.
If someone is not teachable then there is no reason to repeat it over and over.

You said...
"TD Jakes does not believe what we apostolics believe"

Apostolic? There are no modern day apostles now.

DT

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